Barr backers ‘besmirching’ Loudermilk record
July 01, 2014 12:29 AM | 1796 views | 16 16 comments | 26 26 recommendations | email to a friend | print
DEAR EDITOR:

Which is more important? A candidate’s platform or a candidate’s past occupation? I am referring to the unfounded attacks by three individuals — Larry Mrozinski, Bill Stanley, and Scott McElroy, who admit to being among supporters of 11th congressional district candidate Bob Barr — who have been besmirching the honorable military career of Barry Loudermilk.

I have personally heard two of Loudermilk’s speeches and felt that he downplayed his military career. Even Mr. Stanley admits that Loudermilk did not say he was an Air Force pilot, just that he was a pilot. This is the only specific allegation this small group could make, but their allegations don’t wash.

Loudermilk did serve in the Air Force and therefore obviously, as he says, “knows the importance of national defense … aerospace and airpower.”

I personally don’t care what Loudermilk did in the military — only that he served his country honorably for 20 years. Ironically, his opponent, Mr. Barr, did not serve in uniform at all.

Since Mrozinski, Stanley and McElroy used their military background as qualifiers of their opinions, I feel I should share some of mine: Three years in U.S. Army as avionics technician, one year in Southeast Asia earning Vietnam Campaign Ribbon and Service Medals, and 20-plus years with the U.S. Air Force as an Aircraft Maintenance Officer. Private sector experience: B.S. in Electronic Engineering, M.S. in Administration, avionics engineer at Lockheed Aircraft Company and General Radio Telephone License (FCC, First Class).

Mrozinski was quoted as saying “one’s military record should not be embellished or used to manipulate or mislead the public for personal gain.” I completely agree. In my opinion, Mrozinski is the one who is exaggerating and distorting. He has listed no specifics, only generalizations and speculations against Loudermilk for Bob Barr’s political gain.

Mr. Stanley was puzzled why some have not served in combat. Since Vietnam, every soldier and airman serves in a hostile environment. All military is inherently risky and potentially dangerous. If Stanley disagrees with me, I challenge him to pinpoint the warfronts on any map depicting Vietnam, Iraq, Kuwait or Afghanistan. What about those killed or injured by IEDs? And what is so glamorous about being a helicopter pilot with the distasteful task of killing the enemy, as necessary as it might be?

Anyone receiving a private pilot’s license, like Loudermilk, had to complete courses in aviation fundamentals and aeronautics, commonly known as “ground school.” Also, many non-flying jobs in the USAF require similar studies. I, too, was required to study similar courses, both as an enlisted avionics technician in the Army and later as an aircraft maintenance officer in USAF.

I question this group’s motives because they are grasping at straws with no substance to their allegations. I am acquainted with both Barr and Loudermilk. I have not decided my vote yet, but if Barr does not refute these misleading allegations against Loudermilk by his stated campaign supporters, the decision will have been made for me, as it should be for thousands of others.

Randy Scamihorn
Veteran
West Cobb


(Editor’s note: Mr. Scamihorn is vice chairman of the Cobb School Board).
Comments
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Amber Lee
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July 01, 2014
Loudermilk's latest home mailer contains yet more misleading information about his military service. It claims citations for the 1986 Philippine "Crisis" and 1986 Air Raid on Libya.

In his capacity as an Air Force message handler, are we to believe that E-5 Loudermilk played some kind of "combat" role in these operations? That is what is being insinuated, and that is wrong, dishonest, and an embellishment of one's military record. How can one serve in combat from one's cushy stateside duty stations in Hawaii, Texas, and Alaska?

The 1986 Philippine "Crisis" was not even a crisis. The Philippine people kicked Ferdinand Marcos and his wife Imelda out of the Philippines, and the U.S. government gave Marcos a new home in Hawaii. Nothing even resembling a "crisis." Get real!

In the 1986 Libyan raid, the Air Force role was to fly F-111s from RAF bases in England to attack Libyan targets. Did E-5 Loudermilk pilot one of the F-111s? Very doubtful!

Loudermilk may have been involved in message handling support for these two events, and the unit he was assigned to may have gotten one of those unit awards that the Air Force hands out hundreds of every year, but what, if any, personal combat decorations did Loudermilk receive?

You may fool civilians with no military experience, but veterans, particularly real combat vets, will see the baloney every time.

Yes, absolutely, Loudermilk continues to embellish his military record.

R. Scamihorn
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July 01, 2014
Thank you for your comments and being involved. I'm not promoting one candidate over the other. My point is that other people are besmirching Loudermilk's record without supporting appropriate specifics.

Bottom line, once again: What has he said or written that is inaccurate? As a favor to you I will attempt to obtain a copy of his latest home mailer.

To address the rest of your comments, you're entitled to whatever beliefs you have, although I believe most of what you said is misguided at best. You can't assume that the awards were false just because he may not have flown a plane or acted from a different location. Modern day wars are fought in many forms from many locations throughout the world. Pertaining to the context of your comments, they are irrelevant to the points I am making in my letter and in my replies on this web page.

Thanks again for your input.
Amber Lee
|
July 02, 2014
Mr Scamihorn,

Do you comprehend standard English?

No where did I state any of Loudermilk's awards were false. How in the world could anyone possibly come to that conclusion from reading my comments?

You, like many others, do not undestand the difference between Loudermilk's self-serving self-authored "Military Resume" and his DD214.

The DD214 is a factual government issued official record of military service, versus Loudermilk's self-authored self-serving "military resume."

Your standard response, so far, is to continually dismiss other people's opinions as misguided and not accurate. Do you have anything else to offer to the discussion?

The specifics are in Loudermilk's unofficial self-serving self-authored "Military Resume." Please study these documents, so that you may become informed.

Do you understand that a military UNIT award is NOT a personal award? It is simply a case of the person being in the right unit at the right time and in the right place. Moreover, such UNIT awards are often given to supporting units, versus actual participating combat units. Loudermilk was in communications units that supported military combat operations, not units that were in actual hostile fire zones and in contact with enemy forces. He served in Hawaii, Alaska, and Texas. Those states are not designated as hostile fire zones, which is why Loudermilk's DD214 does not reflect personal or unit combat awards.

You are not doing me any favors by obtaining Loudermilk's latest home mailer. This should be the duty of any informed voter to read and carefully analyze such items. Please do yourself a favor and become an informed high information voter.

What we do, in fact, have is the skillful manipulation and wording of Loudermilk's military service to make it appear what it is not. Anyone can easily see this by taking Loudermilk's DD214 and comparing it to his home mailers and his self-authored "Military Resume."

By the way, note to Loudermilk's campaingn, a security clearance is never "awarded." A security clearance is "granted." Nice try to add yet more "awards" to Barry's self-authored military resume. The embellishment continues.

Tom Wilder Chairman
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July 01, 2014
Randy, As a VietNam veteran 1965-67, with 6 mos on an ammunition ship, USS Wrangell AE 12, from 11-65 to 5-66, and then onto the USS Ajax AR 6 fr 5-66 to 8-67, and 4 years in the Reserves, I do not question Mr. Loudermilks Air Force service, however I do question the length of service, 20 years you mention, when his DD 214 says 7 years and 11 months. The DD 214 doesn't mention intelligence or being a pilot?

I grew up in an Air Force town, Midwest City, Oklahoma, home of Tinker Air Force, and my step-father was in the Air Force for a number of years.

Your candidate is a nice guy, and so is Mr. Barr. Barry served in the Air Force, and Bob served our Country with the CIA for 8 years. I don't doubt they both love our Country.
R Scamihorn
|
July 01, 2014
Tom,

First and foremost, thank you for your service and welcome home. Thank you for making my point for the other readers that one can be directly involved in a war and be in another location other than on the "front lines".

Second, as I've said in other replies, the intent of my letter was to point out inconsistencies of what others were trying to say. I was taking my information from news articles, editorials, and speeches. I misunderstood the term "career" when I read when it in an article referring to Loudermilk's career. It doesn't matter whether his career spanned 2, 6, 10 or 20 years. The point is that he served honorably. It is also irrelevant because the context of my letter was to point out the vagueness and intentional effort to smear a person's honorable service to one's country. Next, you make my point with the comment that his DD214 doesn't mention being a military pilot. Loudermilk has never said he was a military pilot, as the group I mentioned in my article has asserted.

Finally, I agree with you. They both love our country and what I know of both of them, they are good men. My letter wasn't intended to infer one candidate over the other, unless this continues. Why did this group start with trying to malign Loudermilk's military record? Thanks for your comments.

Gulf War Vet
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July 01, 2014
I could agree more with Mr. Scamihorn. I am most disgusted that Bob Barr, who avoided the draft for Vietnam, would try to trash the honorable service of a veteran. I urge other Veterans to question Bob Barr on how he got out of military service during Vietnam.
GVeal
|
July 01, 2014
Mr. Scamihorn, The veteran's you disparage DID provide specific instances of embellishment on the part of Mr. Loudermilk's campaign. He was only in the US Air Force for 7 years and 11 months. You, yourself, wouldn't lay claim to military service in the Civil Air Patrol as military service, but Mr. Loudermilk does. There is no VA or Veteran's benefits accruing to him for CAP involvement. Even his pilot license was only issued in 2008. You should know better as School Board member, that embellishing one's record is more than frowned upon, it is totally unacceptable and are grounds for dismissal from the school system. If he had stated the facts only without the embellishment there would not be an issue. He is the one who has created the scenario that he is now trying to extricate himself from. He has yet to speak to the points in any "forum" or "debate". People can accept an honest response, but not one where denial of the facts are reiterated.
R Scamihorn
|
July 01, 2014
Thank you for your comments, however, you are doing exactly what the others did without sourcing your comments. First, you don't point out how I disparaged others. Who did I disparage and how? Secondly, the only specific provided by Loudermilk's critics was that he somehow made it appear that he was a military pilot. Cite exactly where he said he was a military pilot. Interpretation is not a fact. The board member comment may be true but it is irrelevant to what the others were saying and my counterpoint. Third, thank you for pointing out his years of service. I got my information from news articles, editorials, and his speeches. However, whether it's two years, six years, or 20, the amount of time is irrelevant to what they tried to do to Loudermilk's record. The point is that he honorably served. So your comments on this are irrelevant to the points I made. Fourth, it is obvious to me that you are supporting Barr. I have no problem with that, but I would ask you to carefully reread my letter and point to specifics where I was strongly supporting one or the other. Fifth, although I agree with you that Civil Air Patrol may not be formally recognized as professional military, but you either don't know or failed to recognize that Civil Air Patrol is an auxiliary of the Air Force, and for lack of a better word, sanctioned by the Air Force. Finally, my letter was limited to 500 words, so some things had to go unwritten. Thanks again.
GVeal
|
July 01, 2014
Why is Loudermilk embellishing his military record?

June 19, 2014 11:02 PM | 3322 views | 3 | 15 | |

DEAR EDITOR:

Although I’m a retired military member who served two tours in Vietnam as an Army aviator, I have never been one to think less of a man who did not serve in combat ... or even in the military service.

What puzzles me is why some who have not served in combat, or have served in less “glamorous” positions in the military, tend to embellish their service.

I recently heard 11th District congressional candidate Barry Loudermilk speak to the Cobb Republican Party breakfast. After carefully listening to his speech, I left thinking he spent eight years in the Air Force as a pilot and intelligence officer from 1984 until 1992. There was also a mention of “Desert Storm,” but the context was unclear.

I went to his website for further clarification and to see what aircraft he flew. His bio had a photo of him in an Air Force flight suit, sitting in the cockpit of a small aircraft, and another in the uniform of an Air Force enlisted man. I read his bio, which stated he served as a communications operations specialist in Texas, Hawaii and Alaska.

I found it difficult to believe that I would misinterpret his presentation of his military service, or that he would intentionally misrepresent it, that much ... as he mentioned being a pilot several times. (I’ve since discovered he obtained a civilian private pilot’s license in 2008).

If I had any doubts of Mr. Loudermilk’s intent to mislead his audience, his performance in Saturday evening’s congressional debate at Kennesaw State University put the doubts out of my mind!

The following were some of his remarks:

“And one of the most important issues is going to be Dobbins (Air Reserve Base), and I’ll commit to you as someone who knows the importance of national defense, I’ve lived in that arena, I worked in that arena, and as an aviator, as a pilot, I know the value and the importance that our aerospace and our airpower has. We must do everything in our ability to keep Dobbins operating and open.” …

“When I was in the Air Force, I was in a course that we were discussing aerospace engineering and flight physics and I remember the professor was talking about the bumblebee and at the time, aerospace engineers couldn’t figure out how a bumblebee could fly.” (Why does an enlisted, communications operations specialist study aerospace engineering and flight physics? And Herman Cain tells this same story about himself but it’s set in a physics class often and was even told on his radio show the week before the debate.) ...

“I bring the experience and the knowledge of not just a state legislator but I know intently from being in the Department of the Defense and working in aerospace as well as working in the United States Air Force how important it is, and I will bring that knowledge to the table.” …

“Folks, Putin has taken out of mothballs the Bear H bombers that we intercepted when I was in the Air Force in Alaska.” …

“I can’t answer that question right now, because unlike when I was in the military, I was in intelligence and we had that information.”

In my opinion, anyone witnessing that debate would assume, from his carefully misleading statements, that he was an Air Force pilot with the skills needed to address issues of operations of Dobbins, and the intelligence experience needed to address the present foreign policy issues in Washington.

This conduct leads me to believe that if a person feels it’s necessary to mislead the voters about his actual resume, he must feel unqualified for the job.

Perhaps he knows something we don’t — but that we should. I thank him for his service — but the embellishment of that service does not earn him my trust!

Bill Stanley

Cobb County

Editor’s note: Stanley served two tours as an Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam and later worked as a police officer in Detroit. Prior to the recent primary, he served as Veterans’ Coalition chairman for 11th District candidate Tricia Pridemore of Marietta.

Marietta Daily Journal

Since you seem to have come in late to the discussion, Mr. Scamihorn.
anonymous
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July 01, 2014
Bob Barr does have a military background, he is great friends with Ted Nugent an admitted Viet Nam draft dodger.
Field Vet
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July 01, 2014
Mr Scamihorn, as someone associated with education and a veteran yourself, indications are you did not scrutinize the DD214 Loudermilk released. He did not serve 20 years, as you state. Block 12c shows eight years one month and one day of active service, and block 12d shows no prior active service. Then again, are there additional DD214s which Loundermilk has not released?

You take issue with Barr not having served in the military. That is a red herring. Barr has never made any claim that he served in the U.S. military, and his lack of military service is not an issue.

At issue is Loudermilk's embellishment of his military service, and if you study the "military resume" he released, prior to releasing his DD214, there is irrefutable evidence of not only embellishment but some fairy tales too.

Based on the released DD214, here are the facts. Loudermilk was an ordinary common communications person in the Air Force, as reflected in block 11. Block 13 reflects awards that are earned by being in the right place, in the right unit, at the right time. There are no exceptional or special awards in block 13, with the possible exception of the Air Force commendation medal, which the Air Force tends to hand out more freely than the other services do. There are no awards which indicate service in a hostile fire zone.

Unanswered questions remain as to why Loudermilk threw away eight years of active military service, at which point he was almost half way to 20 years active service, which is considered a military career? Additionally, why did he only make it to pay grade E-5 staff sergeant? At the eight year active duty point, he should have been an E-7, at least an E-6?

Care to reconsider some of your remarks, Mr Scamihorn?
R Scamihorn
|
July 01, 2014
What exactly did Mr. Loudermilk say in his speeches that was inaccurate? Because that is what the other group is claiming he did. And they provide no specifics either.

Let me reply to your points in the order you typed. First, I don't have to scrutinize his DD214 because there is no accusation that there is anything wrong with it.

Secondly, thank you for pointing out his time in service. My article was based on news articles, editorials, and speeches I heard. I incorrectly assumed it was 20 years. However, it is totally irrelevant to the issues I responded to. What difference does it make if it was 2 years, 6 years, 10 or 20? That too is not the issue. The point is that he served honorably. Anyone

reading my letter without bias should easily assume I took no issue with Barr not serving in the military. I simply stated that fact as written in news articles. I passed no judgment on anyone whether they served or not.

Next, since you referenced his "military resume", please share that with me. I will read it without adding conclusions that aren't written in the text. I question how relevant it is though since the MDJ has not printed it, and the other group of men disparaging Loudermilk's record did not provide it to the MDJ either.

Next, you failed to state the fairy tales. So what are they? Your paragraph referencing Loudermilk's "ordinary common communications person" comes across as belittling every enlisted person's job, no matter what it may be. Let me assure you, every person's job in the military is important. It is either to directly put munitions on the target or support that endeavor, period. In the military, you don't get medals for doing your job well. You're supposed to get medals for going above and beyond doing your job. Your reference saying that the "Air Force tends to hand out medals freely" also comes across as belittling every one that has been awarded medals in the Air Force, from the Medal of Honor to Service Medals. I can assure you that I earned what few I was awarded. You reference there are no awards given to him in a "hostile fire zone." Let me assure you, as I stated, the military is in danger everywhere. One may debate the degree but I believe those victims at Fort Hood may have a little different view than you. Next, in my years of service, in the US Army, ANG, and USAF, I knew many people that got out with any number of years in the service from 5 to 15 that simply had other opportunities than staying in the military. This is irrelevant to my points in my letter. Additionally, in the Air Force, rank comes slower depending on one's career field than it does in some of the other branches of service.

Finally, you kindly ask if I would care to reconsider any of my remarks. No, I would not. However, I would ask you to reread my letter to the editor with an unbiased attitude. Then you might reconsider some of your remarks. Thank you for your comments.
GVeal
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July 01, 2014
The provided DD214-1 is a non-certified copy and does not even reference his discharge. If you had taken the time to review it along with his non-military RESUME, the embellishment. The requested document is the DD214-4 which is the certified copy and includes the discharge conditions and is the only acceptable military document. As to specific points, Mr. Scott McIlroy clearly defined those areas of concern and correctly identified what was embellished. I'm sure he would be glad to educate you as to the areas of embellishment. Did Barry serve, yes, did Barry provide "smoke and mirrors" for his answer, most certainly.
Gveal
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July 01, 2014
Mr. Scamihorn, in response to your request as Barry doesn't seem to be able to provide you a copy. His embellished Military Non-Official Resume:

Service Record of Barry Loudermilk

March 1984 - Entered Delayed Enlistment Program with reporting date of May 1984

Lackland AFB, San Antonio, TX (May 1984 – July 1984)

May 1984 - Reported for Basic Military Training (boot camp)

July 1984 – Graduated Basic Military Training and immediately shipped off to Technical School

Shepard AFB, Wichita Falls, TX (July 1984 – September 1984)

July1984 – Reported for Air Force, Basic Telecommunications School

Aug 1984 – Awarded Top Secret Security Clearance – Advanced to cryptologic training

September 1984 – Graduated Basic Communications School (Honor Graduate)

Awards/Recognitions: Honor Graduate – Basic Telecommunications School.

Hickam AFB, Honolulu, HI (September 1984 – October 1987)

Reported for duty to the 1957 Communications Squadron, (Air Force Communications Command).

Assigned to the Base Telecommunications Center working special communications to the Pacific Air

Forces - Command, Control and Intelligence Center. (Specific Duties are classified).

Additional Duties/Training:

Served on the USAF Pacific Honor Guard, rifle team and honor guard.

Graduated from Air Force Combat Weapons Training with USAF Marksmanship Medal.

Served as Special Weapons Escort/Security for 15th Air Base Wing.

Served on the 15th Air Base Wing Search and Recovery Team.

Served with Air Force Auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol (CAP), Mokulele Search and Rescue Squadron.

Flew Search and Rescue missions as an Airborne Observer (Picture of me in flight suit was taken

during while serving in this capacity).

Served as Combat First Aid instructor for 1957 Communications Squadron.

Awards/Recognitions: 1957 Communications Squadron, Airman of the Year

15 Air Base Wing, Airman of the Year

Nominated for United States Air Force Airman of the Year (Entire USAF)

Graduated United States Air Force, Non Commissioned Officers Preparatory Course. Named

class honor graduate and received the John L. Levitow Award.

Awarded the Air Force Commendation Medal for Outstanding Performance above and beyond

the call of duty.

Awarded the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (Ribbon) for Outstanding Performance above

and beyond the call of duty during the Philippine Crisis.

Awarded the Air Force Good Conduct Medal.

Awarded the Air Force Overseas Tour Medal.

Awarded the Air Force Longevity Award (for 4 years’ service).

Special Operations: Provided operational communications support during the Philippine Crises, for ousted Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos.

Provided C3I special services during Operation Mad-Dog (Bombing of Libya)

Elmendorf AFB, Alaska (October 1987 – July 1992)

October 1987, Reported for Duty at the 3rd Communications Squadron, Elmendorf AFB, Alaska.

Temporarily assigned to Strategic Air Command, Ground Base Communications Center while awaiting Special Compartmented Information (SCI) security clearance. Maintained and operated secure Top Secret communications channels between Strategic Air Command Headquarters and USAF bombers

operating in the Alaska/Soviet Union Theater of Operations. (Specific duties are classified).

Awarded SCI (intelligence) security clearance by the Defense Intelligence Agency and subsequently

assigned to Joint Task Force Alaska’s Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence (C3I)

Operations Center. General duties included providing secure/encrypted communications support for intelligence and command and control operations in the Alaskan Air Command. Worked with Joint Task Force Alaska, NORAD, CIA, Air Force Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and Tactical Air Command (TAC). (Specific duties are classified).

Additional Duties/Training: Temporary Duty Assignment at Air Force Satellite Communications School – Keesler AFB Mississippi.

Temporary Duty Assignment at A.C.E.S School, Defense Nuclear Agency – Kirtland AFB, New

Mexico.

Temporary Duty Assignment (undisclosed location), Desert Shield Special C3I Operations.

Temporary Duty Assignment (undisclosed location), Operation Desert Storm, C3I Operations.

Temporary Duty Assignment, US Coast Guard Operations Center, Juneau Alaska

Temporary Duty Assignment, US Army C3I Alaska Center, Fort Wainwright, Alaska

Appointed as WASSO (World Wide Military Command and Control Area Special Security Officer),

Joint Task Force Alaska.

Accepted into the Air Force Boot Strap program, (special program for exceptional performers to

complete college education and accept commissioning as an officer).

Assigned as Cryptologic Resources and Top Secret Courier Escort Services.

Graduated

United States Air Force, Non Commissioned Officer Academy (Honor Graduate – Military Studies Award).

Special Operations: Special C3I Support for Operation Just Cause (Panama Invasion)

Special C3I Support for Operation Desert Shield (Kuwait)

Special C3I Support for Operation Desert Storm (Kuwait)

Special C3I Support for Exxon Valdez Oil Spill (unclassified operations)

Awards/Recognitions:

Awarded second Air Force Commendation Medal for exemplary service above and beyond the

call of duty.

Given special recognition by President George H.W. Bush for exemplary service during

Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm (actual duties performed are classified so special

recognition was via encrypted communications following secession of hostilities).

Awarded second Air Force Good Conduct Medal

Awarded second Air Force Longevity Service Award

Awarded second Air Force Outstanding Unit Award for exemplary service during Operation

Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

Awarded 3rd Communications Squadron, Non-Commissioned Officer of the Quarter.

No job descriptors on his DD214, as an E5 he would have had maybe two lower ranks under him, three at the most. Looks like he handled everything but "boots on the ground" by himself.
Field Vet
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July 01, 2014
@R Scamihorn

You make no new points in your rambling rant. Your response totally lacks any substance and adds nothing new to the discussion.

It is YOU, sir who needs to get facts straight. You wrote the letter and made several assertions with no basis in fact or truth.

You, like others, are quick to dismiss the contents of Loudermilk's DD214 as being inconsequential. You do this, because the DD214 is a record of fact, issued by the U.S. Government, and a record that you cannot manipulate to fit your own purposes.

It is not my job to educate you. If you are going to comment on this topic, then you should keep up to date on what is being said and published. Loudermilk's campaign released a so "Military Resume" just prior to releasing his DD214. Do your own research, and don't expect others to do research for you.

And don't lecture others about Air Force policy, when it is obvious from your comments that you lack understanding in this area. Fact is the Air Force is the only service where one will see an E-1 decked out with six rows of ribbons like a South American general.

A hostile fire zone is so designated by military authority, not according to what you think it is or ought to be. Again, the DD214 is fact, not what your opinion is.

And who is belittling the Air Force now? You are, when you say Air Force rank comes slower than other services. You have just insulted the honorable service of every member of the U.S. Air Force by saying their rank comes slowly.

Finally, you say your letter was unbiased attitude? Yes, I partially agree, you do have an attitude. And you dismiss your mistake in the total number of Loudermilk's service years as being irrelevant? Hilarious!

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