Re: Edward Biggs letter, “CSX tracks a viable option for rail transit line,” Oct. 16 MDJ
Mr. Biggs seems to deny reality. He suggests that the CSX line through Cobb could support shared use by an effective commuter rail service. I suggest it cannot be done in a practical way. My experience is a bit different from his. I spent large segments of my career in information systems working closely with major rail and motor freight transportation companies. Since childhood I have been enamored with both real and model trains. I have spent many hours watching and studying the railroad industry.
How can anyone, even an idle watcher of trains, and with an element of analytical skills, fail to recognize the inability to impose commuter rail traffic into the already complex schedule of one of our nation’s most heavily used rail segments? I have many friends and relatives who did not grow up in a technical or analytical environment. Most of them easily recognize the problem of mixing small strings of gerbils with long strings of elephants on a single line of steel.
Perhaps Mr. Biggs is suggesting sharing the right of way of the CSX rather than the existing rails. If so, he should describe his options. One option is to clear a path alongside the existing rails for an additional set of tracks (preferably enough for two-way travel). This would entail removing homes and businesses and widening every bridge involved. Adjacent roadways would be affected.
Another option is to build an elevated line above the existing rails. Some of the complications here are obvious, but some might surprise the unaware.
I suggest that before publishing any further letters or editorials which favor using the CSX tracks for commuter service, you prepare a simple explanation for the uninitiated who might be subject to the reasonableness of this fantasy. Please do not allow the opinions of the uninformed to confuse the public with frivolous opinion.
Bill Lyons
Smyrna
Follow us on Twitter!
"Harry: NO WORRIES!! It will be a chilly day in Lucifer-Land when I come out in favor of a tax as poorly conceived in concept and management as TSPLOST....or actually any SPLOST for that matter."
You and Harry have a helluva lot of support in your position against this poorly thought-out and poorly conceived TSPLOST from voters in Northeast Metro Atlanta after the state's misguided rollout of High Occupancy TOLL lanes on I-85 through Gwinnett and DeKalb Counties.
"The best news is what I have in mind for a commuting solution won't require ANY taxes to build OR operate. This IS possible. You'll see how very soon."
Oh, I know that it's possible as tax increases are the laziest (and greediest) way to fund transit improvements.
I'll say it in two-part harmony with you Harry: I ain't votin' for it.
The best news is what I have in mind for a commuting solution won't require ANY taxes to build OR operate. This IS possible. You'll see how very soon.
The plans for high-frequency bus rapid transit were dropped after much negative feedback from the public over the part of the plan that included widening parts of Interstate 75 to as many as 25 lanes and displacing lots of established industrial, commercial and residential development.
Placing transit stations for high-frequency bus service in the middle of a really wide freeway far away from residences and businesses that generate ridership for transit lines was also judged by the public and transportation experts to be a really bad idea that would've made the line lose money and suffer from low ridership from the start.
Bus service on Interstate 75 can be effective but only in the form of express and commuter bus service, not bus rapid transit.
Public resistance to widescale road widenings and the non-viability of heavy local bus service (see the mixed results of CCT) and bus rapid transit makes commuter rail service pretty much a necessity going forward, especially in a metropolitan region that has over the last 20 years grown from 2.9 million in 1990 to 5.8 million today but is dependent upon a transportation infrastructure that has largely remained unchanged during a period of 100 PERCENT population growth.
Our population has increased by 100 percent over the last 20 years, but has our transportation infrastructure? The short answer is NO!
"Until Misters LaBarge, Sifen, Lyons, and railroadman come out in favor of taxes for rail construction, I ain't voting for it."
They don't need to come in favor of new across-the-board tax increases for commuter rail construction as commuter rail construction can be financed in the same way that the construction of toll roads are financed, with bonds paid back with fares and user fees over a period of 20-40 years.
Even in an economic and political environment where the option of raising taxes is just simply not available (an economic and political environment like THIS ONE), a project like commuter rail can still be financed because unlike most surface roads and freeways, transit CAN charge riders for each use and recoup its costs at the FAREBOX if COMPETENTLY managed (UNLIKE MARTA).
Just simply raising taxes, especially for a mode of transportation like transit that, contrary to local popular belief, CAN pay for itself, be self-supporting and even make a profit, makes no sense and is a LAZY and incompetent way to approach transportation planning.
And saying that nothing can be done until taxes are increased yet again and again and again...is a convenient excuse for bureaucrats to continue to do nothing while collecting a paycheck from the taxpayers.
"Why isn't the Silver Comet trail an option?"
The Silver Comet Trail isn't an option because the biking community would raise all heck if a fairly popular recreational trail was eliminated. Also it's an unwritten cardinal rule amongst transportation planners not to supplant recreational trails with rail transit lines, especially those that have proved to be fairly popular with the public at large, even if the trail was once a rail line.
And besides transportation planners not wanting to supplant recreational trails with rail transit lines, the state already has proposals on the books to implement future commuter rail service between Atlanta and Rome and eventually Chattanooga (by way of Mableton, Austell, Powder Springs, Hiram, Dallas & Rockmart) on the Norfolk Southern line that roughly parallels the Silver Comet Trail between Austell and Rockmart.
The preliminary plans for a regional commuter rail network can be viewed at:
http://www.dot.state.ga.us/travelingingeorgia/rail/Documents/CommuterRailMap.pdf
Commuter rail service is proposed to run on the Norfolk Southern lines between Atlanta and Rome and between Atlanta and Anniston, AL as a way to alleviate gridlock on Hwy 278-6 between I-20 and Dallas and to alleviate gridlock on I-20 outside of I-285.
As a sidenote, the region has proposed to realign Lee Road, Sweetwater Road, Hiram Lithia Springs Road and Powder Springs Dallas Road all into one contiguous 4-6 lane roadway between the Hwy 278-6/C.H. James Parkway/Powder Springs Dallas Road intersection and the I-20/Lee Road interchange as an alternative and a means to alleviate heavy traffic off of Hwy 6 between Powder Springs and I-20, heavy traffic made MUCH WORSE by the Norfolk Southern Intermodal Facility in Austell.
RailroadMan wrote on Tuesday, Oct 25 at 01:37 PM
"Atlanta is NOT where the problem is in Cobb County. The issue is a lousy network of East-West roads all feeding a massive, singular Interstate artery (I-75), with in turn feeds the distributing artery known as The Perimeter. No existing heavy rail route will correct this. A different format will, however. Stand by for that."
I agree as you are very correct and hit the nail right on the head with your assessment of one of the root causes of traffic congestion in Cobb County.
But there doesn't necessarily seem to be too many politically viable road-widening options to help improve the situation besides at the very least widening Hwy 41 to six through lanes with a continuous right-turn lane throughout the road's entire length from I-285 up to the Bartow County line.
Past experience proves that attempting to widen Hwy 120/Whitlock Ave through the Battlefield and the Westside of Marietta is pretty much a big political NO-NO.
Proposing to widen east-west roads like Windy Hill from five lanes to 6-7 lanes and the East-West Connector to six lanes, could dramatically help to improve east-west traffic flow.
Where the road-improvement solutions get tricky are on the Top End stretch of I-285 east of I-75 over to Hwy 400 and I-85.
GDOT has proposed to rebuild the I-285/Hwy 400 interchange for at least two decades and is putting forth the proposal once again, but there is little, if any, political support in the section of North Fulton and North DeKalb Counties, especially in the neighborhoods in Sandy Springs and Dunwoody that line the Perimeter, to widen I-285 much beyond its current width of 10-12 lanes across the Top End of the Perimeter.
Reconstructing the interchange at I-285 & Hwy 400 and eliminating the deadly left-lane merges onto Hwy 400 NB & SB from 285 and the undersized cloverleaf ramps from 400 to 285 and replacing them with high-speed flyover ramps is a very popular prospect amongst commuters on the Top End Perimeter, but the system of collector-distributor ramps that would lead up to the ramps on 400 & 285 and make those expressways wider are not too terribly popular with residents in the surrounding neighborhoods.
Proposals for some type of rail transit across the Top End Perimeter between Interstates 75 & 85, preferably a light rail combined with carpool lanes elevated over the existing roadway of I-285, have also received fairly positive receptions from the public as there is very little, if any, space to widen I-285 horizontally on the ground with the existing established and mature residential and commercial development that lines the roadway and the insistence of residents that the community and adjacent development not be significantly disrupted by any reconstruction of I-285 (and 400) pretty much leaving elevated expansion of the road as the only option.
Having some type of passenger rail service or rail transit would fit in almost perfectly with rail service in the Northwest Corridor to help relieve the congestion and alleviate gridlock off of I-285 across the Top End of the Perimeter that causes the congestion and gridlock on I-75 all the way back up to I-575 and Acworth.
Interstates 75 north of the South Marietta Pkwy interchange to the Bartow County line and Interstate 575 from I-75 up to Canton also need to be badly widened to help traffic flow better through the entire corridor outside of I-285.
Though we seem to have reached the point where road widenings, no matter how much they may actually be needed to help traffic, have become politically unviable if not downright politically impossible in most cases to be accomplished on a wide scale as it is the HARDCORE transit advocates inside the Perimeter (the Intowners who HATE roads) that seem to have gained firm control over the transportation planning process for the entire region.
Thanks for the clarifications on just what rail right-of-way the state owns.
I agree that high-speed passenger rail on the former Western & Atlantic rail line is not very probable or practical because of ridership concerns and difficult geography.
Though the state continues to be very enamored with the idea of high-speed rail on that particular line even going as far to offer the State of Tennessee future high-speed passenger rail access to Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta Int'l Airport and future high-speed freight rail access to the International Seaport at Savannah in return for access to water from the Tennessee River for Georgia.
Not to mention the passenger rail lobby has been gaining more and more power and influence under the Gold Dome in recent years and continues to do so which is why we see such misguided proposals for passenger rail like the $2 BILLION light rail line between Midtown and Town Center Mall via Hwy 41/Cobb Parkway.
The $300 million that would have to be spent to modify the CSX/W&A route for commuter rail just for the segment between Atlanta and Cartersville alone may sound expensive, but is a relative bargain compared to the non-existent $1 BILLION that the state wants to spend on building High Occupancy Tolled carpool lanes on I-75 & I-575 down to I-285 (the type of HOT lanes that have caused so much traffic trouble on I-85 in Gwinnett) and the non-existent $2 BILLION that regional development interests want to spend on light rail on Hwy 41 between Town Center and Midtown.
The state and the region are also going about trying to finance and pay for rail transit THE WRONG WAY by being dependent solely upon very politically unpopular tax increases as the only means of funding it.
If the state was really serious about putting commuter rail on existing tracks they could do so more effectively and build and get service on the lines up and running much more quickly by financing passenger rail lines in the same way that the construction of toll roads like Hwy 400 are financed, by selling bonds to investors and paying back the bonds with fares and user fees over a period of 20-40 years.
RailroadMan knows his stuff!!!
The State of Georgia only owns the right of way (of varying width, but mostly between 33 and 66 feet wide) of ONLY the former Western and Atlantic Railroad stretching from Atlanta to the Georgia/TN line at Chattanooga. This land is leased to CSX Transportation...which pays the State a small fee for use of this land. Because all tracks and supporting equipment on this right-of-way (not including yard trackage) are "leasehold improvements", technically the State owns these as well...if CSX either ends its lease from the State. CSX maintains all of this at ITS expense. Georgia has no interest in any mainline track in the Atlanta area operated by Norfolk Southern Corporation, although some small sections of restricted speed track used by both CSX and NS downtown are on former W&A right-of-way.
The current lease between GA and CSX does not give the State ANY rights to operation of the W&A line for commuter or freight...and it is likely CSX will not agree to any such plans in a future lease...the first being renegotiated in 2018, I believe....simply because of disruption to its existing freight business on this line south of Junta Tower in Cartersville.
All of the above, combined with the over $300 million (a true number, Mr. Biggs) cost of this service - just to build - means a CSX route for commuter should not be built. With a cheaper, more flexible mode available very shortly, the State isn’t and won’t be pushing for the CSX route. (Developers will be changing their tune pretty shortly too, and that will drive the chosen route.)
As for the State wanting "High Speed" rail service on the W&A line, that just isn't going to happen. You see...there are these funny things on this route called CURVES...and they are worse than anything on the NE Corridor (between NYC and BOS) - where specialized equipment is needed to get north of 79mph. An all new, many-BILLIONS-of-dollars right-of-way with tunnels in several places will be necessary to have high speed train service to Chattanooga. Yes...it is physically do-able. No...it is not financially feasible.
But above all of this, commuting into downtown Atlanta is NOT where the problem is in Cobb County. The issue is a lousy network of East-West roads all feeding a massive, singular Interstate artery (I-75), with in turn feeds the distributing artery known as The Perimeter. No existing heavy rail route will correct this. A different format will, however. Stand by for that.
I defer to Mr. Labarge and other more knowkedgeable commenters like "railroadman" for common sense and technically astute responses to those individuals who still think that using freight corridors for commuter rail makes any sense at all.
I think everyone agrees that we desperately need a solution to our commuting nightmare. It also seems obvious, at least to me, that commuter rail and light rail are simply not financially feasible and take way to long (decades) to put in place.
I, too have wondered if their was a potential solution using the existing tracks that actually make the most sense for a route to Atlanta. It would seem someone analytical and with expertise in logistics would take this on as a challenge to be innovative.
From what I understand and have been told by multiple sources, the state actually owns the rail lines' right-of-way that CSX and Norfolk Southern operate freight rail service on.
Because the state actually owns the tracks that the freight companies use (exceptionally heavy in the case of Norfolk Southern on the South Cobb lines), the state has alot of leeway and authority in restricting freight rail use so that commuter trains will be able to operate high-frequency rush hour service so as to relieve congestion and traffic stress off of Interstates 20, 75 & 575 and Hwy 41.
Commuter rail might have come on line about 15-20 years ago, it's just that the Georgia Department of Transportation is in such extreme organizational disarray that they can hardly handle simple basic road maintenance projects that have been on the books for years, much less rail, but the plans and the layouts for commuter rail service within existing freight rail corridors is on the GDOT website under the heading of "Passenger Rail".
Not only that, but the fix is in from the land speculator and commercial development community in Metro Atlanta that the future of commercial and residential development in the Atlanta Region will be in high-density developments along high-traffic passenger rail corridors.
The same factions that for decades built new roads just for commercial development purposes (see Barrett Parkway and East-West Connector) are now turning their sights to building new commuter and, of course, light rail and streetcar lines as the real estate development community is just absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the there is a ton of money to be made off of rail-centered real estate development.
Mr. Biggs' line, "I don't believe it", pretty much said his response was hollow.
The dollars involved are actually way more than the Labarge column said. Don't even think about triple and quad-tracking this length of rail. It just won't work for anything close to a reasonable cost. (And the land required for this goes outside of what is owned by the State, just as you say.)
SG68 should be chiming in shortly...